I’m taking a little break from my blogging hiatus to link you to my friend Nate’s blog post on a child’s place among us in the church. (Didn’t know I was taking a hiatus, did you? Neither did I. But it’s been nice.) It’s excellent. Here’s an excerpt:
It is clear from the Scriptures that when God called a people to be his own, children were considered to be vital members of that community. The children were included in the community’s celebrations and its sadness. When God delivered his people from the hands of the Egyptians, the children experienced that deliverance with their parents and were included in the conversations about God’s mighty works. When the Israelites wandered through the desert and entered into the Promised Land, their children were with them and entered with them. They were witnesses to God’s power and awesome deeds on every occasion.
We have developed the strange habit of regularly sequestering the children from the adults within the community of God’s people. We even get to church and parents go in one direction while their children go in another….[click here to read on]
i love it and also agree.
but what is one to do in a church where this is so very not the attitude or opinion of the worshipers? when you’ve been kindly asked to not have your distractive child in the pew with you during “church?” how do we get all walks of life (single, adult, young adult, senior) to embrace this and understand a bit more of what jesus meant when he said, “let the little children come to me!”?
I think it’s great, but I don’t have any obvious answer for Liz. I came to my realization that “children’s church” was not a good idea only after our children were past that stage, so I never had to deal with such unkind (no matter how “kindly”) comments.
The church should be supporting families, not dividing them. We were at one church that emphasized the importance of “families” coming to church on Sunday nights, then proceeded to splinter the members into separate activities. For many (most, I should say) of the members, church was just one of many activities that divided family members. (Don’t get me started on youth groups! I know they’re even more popular than children’s church, but too often I’ve seen them do more harm than good.)
And yet I do feel for churches who are trying to deal with undisciplined children. I’m not talking about wiggly little people who occasionally cry or comment too loudly. We are, perhaps, reaping what we’ve sown for so long, in our division of families — the people I know who have dealt with young children over the years (in school, children’s choirs, and the like) tell me they are getting harder and harder to work with: poorer discipline, lack of social skills, short attention spans, responding only to highly “entertaining” activities.
But it can work, and when it does, it’s beautiful. I love hearing a small child’s voice enthusiastically shouting the responses in a liturgical church (as I did at the Church of the Ascension when we visited), and watching a toddler with a tambourine dancing in the pew during the singing (as I did at a friend’s non-denominational charismatic church).
Where it doesn’t work well is in churches that insist on having long sermons. Since I personally don’t think a worship service is the place for long sermons, I’d avoid that kind of church anyway if I could.
Maybe Heather has some ideas. I think she’s pretty happy with the way her church is accommodating families with young children.
Just so you know, some of us noticed your hiatus and missed you!
it is my dream to sit in the pew (or row or circle of chairs…we just happen to be in a pew-type-church) with all of my young children. i guess i could just keep them there – our nursery and sunday school is nothing to write home about, so i would feel much better about having them with us. i don’t even mind the stage where i am with adam (who is VERY wiggly and wants to get down the minute we sit) and would probably miss out on a big chuncks of the service “tending” to his loud and boisterous needs.
that’s just the stage we’re in.
i did tell heather we would visit their church with them soon (since it’s close to us!), so maybe i’ll get a better perspective on how churches embrace children of all ages in the service.
i agree, sursumcorda, with your comment about sermons. because the boys love it when we sing and stand and recite. it’s the sitting and being still for more than five minutes where we face the louder wiggles.
any way, it’s a topic close to my heart these days. fortunately, our church is small enough and open enough to changes, i think the clergy and congregation wouldn’t mind us raising our kids in the pew and not in the nursery if we choose to do so. maybe we should just start….
Good thoughts from both of you. And, it’s nice to be missed! ;o)
Liz said:
“maybe we should just start….”
Yes! You should. Commit to, say, two months (eight straight weeks or so) of working with your children and church family to encourage everyone to get used to worshiping together. Practice at home, prepare on Saturdays for the next day, and be ready to work with Kenny on taking turns with the baby in the back. (I wore Ellery on by back in my mei tai at Adam’s age, while I paced. She was always tired, so the pacing helped her calm down, and I got to listen and/or worship, to.)
Liz, it’s so tough. I’m with you on feeling the pressure to put my children in nursery and Sunday School along with the rest of the kids their age. We chose Ascension for many reasons, one of which was the fact that children are brought back into the service for communion (the last 20-30 minutes, usually). It was the closest we got to a liturgical church that welcomed children into worship. It’s still not enough, I think, no matter how much we love the church family there.
I would like to post later on tips for raising your children up in the pew (and in the small group, too). I have a few ideas that have worked for me, but I need more. I’d love for us all to bounce ideas off each other.
Small group is another issue. We are hoping to form a small group that will embrace all ages of family members while still encountering God and His word in a strong way each week. We have good ideas, but need a little group of folks to share the experience with us.
Interesting and timely. Tomorrow I will attend a new Adult Ed. class at my church based on Robbie Castleman’s book, Parenting in the Pew. I read the book several years ago and found her ideas intriguing b/c I hadn’t ever considered them before (i.e. helping your child to understand what is going on in the worship service). I even had the opportunity to speak with Robbie one day as I drove her to an InterVarsity event we were hosting where she was the speaker. So I’m interested in the views of other parents in my church. Our current format (during the school year) is that kids are with parents in the pews until the sermon and then are dismissed to “Children’s Worship” and from there to Sunday School. Over the summer there is no Children’s Worship and they remain with parents throughout the service. Nursery care is available for newborns through age 4 during the worship service. Personally I enjoy the hour where I can participate in the the worship service without my baby/toddler’s distractions. For so much of the week my needs come second (or third, or fourth, or fifth!), I do enjoy an hour to enter in to intimate communion with my Lord. Ellen and Hayley who are now 71/2 yrs. old didn’t participate in the service with us until we moved to this new church a year ago and they didn’t seem to suffer any ill effects. At 6 1/2 they had absolutely no difficulty transitioning to participation in the service with us. Golly, sounds like I have some thoughts on this topic. Thanks for bringing it up! I’d love to hear more opinions.
I’ll try to be quick, but I do have a hard time. (:
In our church there are play rugs in the back for the ones who are too little to sit in the pews/chairs. There’s also a “nursery” of sorts, the firehall kitchen, that can have the door closed and it has a sound feed. It’s not soundproof from the main hall, but it does muffle baby cries and quiet playing, so some parents are more comfortable being with their children there instead of the back of the hall.
People have asked us if we practice with Jonathan at home, to sit still and be quiet. We don’t, we just “practice” as it happens. We didn’t send him to the nursery or Children’s Ministry at our old church – in the main service or in small groups, and over time he learned to sit still quietly. Noah is learning now. Most Sundays one of us is in the back with him, helping him to learn. Basically for him this means when he starts to fidget/make noise, we take him to the back, holding, walking, explaining quietly when need be.
Some parents bring toys for their children to play with on the rugs (which have roads printed on them.)
well, that has taken a lot of time so far, so I’ll stop for now.
i think small groups is a great place to start to get others comfortable with embracing children. we had a “situation” in our small group (that we still love and miss) when rowan was getting out of hand (we were trying so hard to keep him quiet during a discussion – but it was past bedtime, so of course he was going to make noise!) and there was a very loud comment directed at us about rowan’s noise level. at that point, kenny and i looked at each other, got up, and left (with rowan, of course) and after that point, we got a babysitter for our kids when we went to housegroup. i admit, it was nice being able to worship and listen and discuss, but looking back, and where we are now, we would want our boys to be a part of the small group. serina, i’m very eager to hear your small groups embracing families ideas as we’ll be starting a housegroup with our current church this fall.
i’m tempted to begin the boys in the pew at a certain age. rowan does well (with a few loud moments at times) and has stayed in the pew once already (his choice after we suggested it a few times), but sawyer would really be a bit more to handle. so i’m tempted to start him when he’s four, like rowan. but i’m wondering if starting early and just “keep on keeping on” would be the best way.
adam will not be in a sling or carrier anymore. i don’t know if it’s that “boy thing” (i i know, i know…a gender generalization…sorry!) but all three of our boys have never liked the sling for naps or cuddling past a very young age (like 6-7 months!). so adam would just wiggle and whine if i slung him.
good discussion, serina! i’m sorry i’m “taking over!” ha!
~liz
Great to see you last week at the Midwife Center! (Still waiting our baby’s arrival here, by the way). I really agree with this post. One of the things I’ve come to appreciate at a liturgical church, such as First Trinity, is the fact that so much of the weekly service can be committed to memory, so that I can fully participate while my hands are busy occupying my little girl. Already at 14 months she points to the cross being carried in and appears to differentiate between the “active” parts of church and the passive, listening times. Good, quiet church books help too. We also recently moved to sitting in the very front row which has helped all of us concentrate better. I love the fact that we are sitting literally inches from the font where she was baptized. Except for nursing times, she has always been with us in the service. I feel it’s one of the most important times that we bond as a family unit, even at her young age.
It is so funny that I stumbled upon this today! As I was looking at your gorgeous family in the pew today I was wondering why you don’t send the girls to Children’s ministry. It is good to read a little bit of your perspective.
I believe that my kids are getting more out of church and learning more about God in age appropriate ways by being in Sunday School. They are with me for the beginning of the service and then they come back for communion – the central part of our worship service. They would not be anytyhing other than bored and quite possibly a distraction to theose aorund them by being ther for the sermon. And to be wuite honest if I get bored during the sermon sometimes – I’m quite sure it isn’t their fault for feeling the same way!
Age appropriate ministries exist all of the way along (our husbands are leaders in some!) and I believe them to be of great value. Now I am involved closely in the Children’s ministry. I know the curriculum…I volunteer…I know my kids teachers…and I value the way they come alongside me in the effort to raise my children up in the Lord. I think this is a way that the Community of believers can come together and love one another. I teach the 3-5 grade girls and I love them! I cannot wait to be with them and I am honored to be another voice in their lives pointing them to Jesus. I can guarantee you they would not have the same experience sitting in the pew listening to a sermon aimed at adults.
I’m so sorry that your experience in our house group was less than ideal for you – and I respect where you are coming from in wanting a more family focused setting. I pray that you find that so that you all can continue to grow and flourish. we do miss you all though.
Theresa mentioned to me this conversation. Good stuff. The part which is particular interest is small groups. As some of you probably know, in September I’m leading a workshop on the “A,B,C’s of Small Groups” for college age to seniors as part of a Christian Educators Training workshop at Pittsburgh Theological Seminary. Below is the description:
“A,B,C’s of Small Groups” for college age to seniors”
How does one sort through all the tools and fads to discern a Biblical purpose, structure and direction for a small group ministry which can be developed, launched, expanded, sustained, and reinvigorated over time? While outlining a framework and recommending various resources to address the above question, the presenter will weave in personal reflections regarding 1. InterVarsity Christian Fellowship’s small group ministry, 2. Elizabethtown Brethren-in-Christ’s age range fellowship groups which meet every Sunday morning, 3. Mothers of Preschoolers (MOPS), 4. how a young couples small group incorporated singles and later children, lots of them.
I’ve been collecting data for the workshop attendees to compare with the current state of affairs at their local congregation, I’d love to have you drop me an email or post at http://groshlink.net/archives/2007/07/26/inquiry-small-groups (which has more info on the direction of the session and resources I’ll recommend) w/some of your thoughts/reflections regarding your experience of small group AND how you would recommend sharing vision and having famiies involved. This is an opportunity for me to listen/learn and give some of these ideas a wider hearing.
In Christ, Tom
At Providence, where they were less tolerant of having children in the service (and Heather was explicitly asked to not nurse during the service), we opened the doors to the back, and sat out on the floor in the hall. It was only ever an issue when the Sunday school class met in the cafeteria, and were too loud for the service, and so then people would come and close the doors.
The hallway did become more of a gathering place, which was nice, though some folks would talk rather than be part of the service, which was kind of annoying.
Prior to coming to BCF, the best thing I had seen was at Covenant Fellowship in Glen Mills, PA, where there was video and sound piped to outside of the sanctuary, and the nursery was effectively just in the hallway, and there were lots of chairs and carpet, and the kids could play together, and parents could talk a little, but still be part of everything.
Hrm… and my first comment still hasn’t posted, so maybe I’ll have to try again. Maybe it was too long…
Hrm. I accidentally posted the same thing, but when I try to post the correct comment, it says it is a duplicate. Maybe it is being moderated?
Being asked not to nurse in church is downright rude and unacceptable. I can’t fathom being in a place like that…and knowing my personality it would just make me want to nurse in public even more!
Thanks to all commenters. If there are lurkers who have things to say, please do.
I appreciate and respect all sides of this issue. I especially appreciate Beth and Theresa chiming in when the majority of other posts were by those who have different views on children in church.
Jon – I have no comments held up in moderation for you. Try again? Email me your comment, if that doesn’t work, and I’ll post it. I’d like to hear.
It’s probably time to post on the practicalities of having children in church. I think we all have a lot of ideas to share. Even if your kids only worship at the beginning and/or end with you, little ones require special care at times, no?
One thing Beth wrote on her 3rd – 5th grade Sunday Schoolers:
“I can guarantee you they would not have the same experience sitting in the pew listening to a sermon aimed at adults.”
I somewhat agree with you, actually. We can’t just all start bringing our children into the full service with us w/o changing anything else and expect things to go well. In order for all ages of God’s people to worship him together, some things would need to change–a few things in the service, building arrangements, perhaps the sermon (which can be all-age friendly without being “dumbed down,” in my opinion), attitudes and tolerance levels of adults toward younger worshippers, and respect and and awareness of parents with young children (w/ regards to knowing when to take measures to keep their child from distracting others).
I totally agree with having children in the service with us. It’s so good for them to be able to see adults who love the Lord worshipping and learning about Him together. We are so excited when our preschooler has the privilege of witnessing a baptism. Beautiful!
I know many (including some of you!) who have included kids into the service from day one. We’ve chosen to integrate Jonathan (4) into the service gradually. As a toddler, we let him stay in the nursery. At 3 1/2 we started keeping him in the service as long as he could stand it- usually until the sermon started. At 4, he “had the big boy privilege” of staying with us the whole time. He’s done beautifully and either “reads” his bible or draws with pen and paper during the sermon.
Home groups are a whole other story! I’d love to hear some thoughts on them. Our home group consists of 18 people- 10 of them children, most of them under 7. We often meet in an apartment and it’s very difficult to include them in the discussion.
While I whole heartedly support having children in the worship service, we do need to be mindful of others around us. If our children are interrupting their worship (with excessive noise, etc), then we are not serving them in a Christ-like manner.
I guess I am one of those “lurkers.” I’ve been thinking about this topic on and off for a while now, and yesterday I felt compelled to write about it. You can see my thoughts on my blog http://www.venables-r.us/plog/3.
In an ideal situation I would love for children of all ages to be in worship…I simply have not found that situation yet. I have been in conversation with the church planter just hired by Ascension and am interested in all his thought on this matter. I think, in some ways, it would almost have to be a new church because it is very hard for me to imagine most mainline churches changing their whole way of being just to accommodate children…as sad as that may be.
PS Kelly – that links to Peter’s blog I think…
Ohhhh, Heather was smart not to mention that to me! I’m with Beth on the impropriety of being asked not to nurse during the service! I know full well how discrete Heather is when nursing, and how few people there were in the back pews with you even to notice. They would have had to have been looking right at her to know — and shouldn’t their eyes have been looking “up front,” anyway? Grrr.
Small groups are harder, I think. I’ve seen the realities of family get-togethers in which part of the goal was interesting and serious discussion. What too often worked out, in reality, was that the men participated in serious discussion while the women tried to keep a dozen small boys (okay, maybe it was less than half that) from wreaking havoc upon each other and the house.
I think location matters a lot. When Janet was in Japan, she participated in the HIPPO Family Club, a group of families that got together at least once a week to work on learning foreign languages together. It was very important that the children be there, but there were kids of all ages, and few had the attention span to participate with the adults for the entire meeting.
What I observed on the night that we visited was that everyone participated for the first part of the meeting, which included singing and dancing and games. During the later part, the adults continued with the activities, while the children were free to participate or not as they wished. The meetings were held in a room that was sometimes used to teach gymnastics — not as big as an American gym, by any means, but there was room to run a bit and interesting equipment to climb on. Because they were in the same room as the parents, no “babysitter” was needed, and parents could immediately intervene if someone got hurt, or if the noise level rose too high, which it rarely did. What’s more, the children were more secure because they could rejoin their parents at any point. Thus they grew up surrounded by the language activities, encouraged to be a part of them all — every effort was cheered and respected, whether of adult or child — and yet were never pushed beyond their maturity levels. Everybody wins!
That’s hard to accomplish in a normal house, however. It might work better in a church building.
Try this for Kelly’s post: http://venables-r.us/plog/4
Beth wrote:
“I have been in conversation with the church planter just hired by Ascension and am interested in all his thought on this matter. I think, in some ways, it would almost have to be a new church because it is very hard for me to imagine most mainline churches changing their whole way of being just to accommodate children…as sad as that may be.”
I’m interested in hearing the church planters thoughts, too. You’re right–it takes a whole new church (see my latest post for a pastor who started one a few years back for this very reason) or a radical commitment to change. Most churches aren’t set up for family-integrated worship.
I might as well confess my lurking. I was going to correct Kelly’s link but SursumCorda beat me to it, who to do so must have been typing a little too fast, since I assume she knows the difference between “discrete” and “discreet”.
Aargh! I wish I had more time to read everyone’s thoughts. On first skim, I think I have an idea of where the conversation is going. And I feel compelled to comment a little bit, since I am after all married to the one who started this thread and the father of her kids.
My experience of church comes out of a small town Missouri Synod Lutheran Church, with no nursery. There was a Sunday School program, and I loved it. But it did not conflict with the service. It was simultaneous with the adult bible class, right after the fellowship time over instant coffee and kool-aid.
I think that our church got that detail right. Not the instant coffee, that is. I mean that I appreciate that I sat with my parents for the whole service, learning the hymns and how to use a hymnal; learning the liturgical prayers; hearing “grown up” preaching in the sermons; hearing the scripture that the adults were hearing. As a grown man, the liturgy is richer after having gone through it so many times. Plus, we often talked through the same lessons in Sunday school that we had heard in church.
I was not always a model Christian kid, though I tried to be on the outside. And in relationship to the church service, I went through many cycles of interaction – boredom, intense study, increased appreciation, boredom, loathing, spiritual renewal, etc., etc. As a teen, some of the things that I got the most sick of hearing – or that I wanted to avoid because of the inner conviction I felt – have become for me some of my most treasured parts of the liturgy. I don’t think that liturgy is the only way to worship God, but it is a powerful tool over time – to conform our minds to the Word by hearing and saying it over and over and over again. I still remember my mom telling me to sign louder, or to stop crinkling paper, or to just lean my head on her shoulder if I got tired during the sermon. And I think I am smarter than I would have been if I had not heard those 52 sermons each year. The great thing was – I didn’t have to sacrifice worshipping in a peer setting in order to worship with my family.
Serina and I have mixed feelings keeping Maya out of the Children’s worship. We respect and love the teachers,and we like what Maya would be learning. If only it weren’t an either-or situation – if we could let Maya join with kids and wise teachers for a Sunday school class before church, and then have her join us for the worship service! And the teachers would not have to miss the service, either. How does one change a congregation’s culture to allow for that?
“I have hidden your word in my heart, that I might not sin against you.” Psalm 119:11
Jason
It is a tough topic – no doubt. I like that at Ascension – beginning in the 6th grade students are at church with their families. Their Sunday School is concurrent with the Adults and then they are expected to be in church. Some of them do volunteer with the children for a month on month off rotation…which I think is alright since they are engaged in active service.
I also like that the curriculum in the Children’s ministry follows the lectionary so that I am able to engage with my kids in a meaningful dialogue about what we all heard that morning.
I grew up Catholic and was in church for the whole time from the get go. I didn’t have the meaningful experience that others have commented on. I would have loved to have something that spoke to me in a way I could relate to. I think that is one of the reasons I was so attracted to youth group…because they spoke in words I could understand and they cared about the things that were important to me.
Peter, you give me more credit than I’m due. It comes of being a math major.
With regard to ‘dumbing down’ of sermons:
One Sunday at Allegheny Center CMA, the pastor asked parents not to bring their children next week as the material which he was expositing addressing sex was not intended for kids. There were some children who came and they were not kicked out. But the material was intended for the adult audience, just as the children’s worship and education time was focused on delivering age appropriate material.
Now maybe the sermon material could have been delivered in a retreat, adult elective, gender specific ministry, etc . . . but Sunday morning worship time provides the largest audience to present the Word of God directed at this particular area of concern.
Maybe the via media would involve structuring a congregation to create space for the involvement of whole families, but being up front regarding which weeks the sermon material is ‘adult focused.’
Love the HIPPO Family Club model shared above.
No doubt about it; one size definitely does not fit all. I don’t know how far a church should going in being “all things to all men,” but I would hope most would be flexible and at least not discourage families who worship together. Speaking for myself only, I’d rather not have “children’s church” — the way our churches buy into the world’s division of people by age is a hot button for me — but I realize most people don’t feel that way, and there are families who won’t even walk through a church door if it doesn’t have a “good children’s program,” by which is usually meant something that mirrors the school system in its structure. If we’re not going to have a “community” of designer churches, much as we have designer Bibles, we probably need to accommodate each other a bit here.
Our own church buys into the school system model, and during two of the three Sunday morning services the children are pulled out. However, they always come back in time for the Eucharist part of the service, and also for special events such as baptisms. In fact, children are a big part of our baptismal services: They are called up front so they can see better, and as many as possible are given jobs — one holds a candle, another the pitcher, another a Bible, another a towel, until the priest needs them. All our acolytes are children, also, some quite young. They do a wonderful job.
We do have one morning service with no segregation of children, though it doesn’t quite serve the purpose of encouraging families to worship together, since most families find it difficult to get everyone out the door in time for an 8 a.m. service. But it works for those who can get there.
A bigger issue, and an important one for families, is What is the purpose of a worship service? and What is the purpose of a sermon? For many years we were in churches for which the sermon was the main point — all else was prelude and postlude. You have an audience — give them as much teaching as you can. To my mind, that model worked better when people were illiterate, books scarce, and the Internet and podcasts non-existent. I’d much rather have the sermon be a brief exhortation, illustration, or inspiration, and save the longer teaching for Sunday school classes, where there can be more interaction, and “independent study.” But that’s certainly not everyone’s idea of what’s important, and no matter what the Puritans did, it’s not right to try to keep a small child motionless and silent during a long sermon.
Yes. We’ve come a long way from the purpose/origins of Sunday School in England, see http://www.christianitytoday.com/history/newsletter/2001/mar30.html and http://www.wcc-coe.org/wcc/what/jpc/echoes/echoes-20-05.html
‘Back to the future of youth ministry’ is a helpful piece focused on the United States(http://www.wcg.org/lit/church/youth/cannister.htm), I love this quote:
“I would like to make a radical suggestion: The spiritual formation of churched kids is not the responsibility of youth ministers—it is the responsibility of the adult members of the church. Perhaps next Sunday, the pastor could try this little experiment, by standing before the congregation and saying:
“Every so often in our worship service, we dedicate/baptize (depending on one’s tradition) the children of our members. Each of you has witnessed many of the ceremonies. And each time you are asked as a congregation to answer this question: ‘Will you, the congregation, commit to help raise this child in the ways of the Lord?’ And each time you have in unison declared; ‘We will.’ I would like you at this time to write down the names of those young people in our church whom you have assisted in their spiritual journey over the last five years.”
Chances are the congregation will be stunned. The vast majority will be unable to come up with even the name of one child to whom they made that commitment, let alone done anything for. What would happen if every church member that committed to help raise these children in the faith at their dedication or baptism actually followed through on that promise? I suspect that if only 10 percent of the congregation followed through in a meaningful way, the lives of our churched young people would be radically different. And, as a result, youth ministers would be free to focus on reaching the lost kids of the community who have no church family investing in them.”
I had to look up discrete and discreet – I knew both definitions, but didn’t know they were spelled differently – I think I would have spelled “discreet” as “discrete”, but once I looked up the definition, then I realized I did know how to spell them both.
Beth: yeah, although it was stated as a concern for “modesty” and high school boys, though we are reasonably sure that it was another mom who said something, who disliked Heather nursing “older” children, rather than it really being a modesty issue.
Here is the comment I tried to post yesterday:
I have the same response as Serina to the “I guess we should just start”. Definitely, lots of people have thought we were strange or “limiting
our children’s fun” or things like that. Jonathan went to Providence Church’s care group meeting, and mostly never went to the children’s
space, depending on whose house we were at – movies were the method of babysitting at some, and occasionally inappropriate movies (in our
opinion), so it was easiest to keep him with us.
So, we never “practiced” being relatively still and quiet, and sometimes it was hard for Jonathan to stay still for the couple hours during
care group, particularly when the last 20 minutes or so was spent in prayer. I don’t remember it being all that hard though, that he just
needed some talking to every once in a while, and there were sometimes when he would throw a fit (I guess that was when he was younger) and we
had to go outside the room for a couple minutes. John says our kids are “comatose”, at least compared to his kids, so perhaps it is easier
for us than for some. He did say that he was happy to see our kids sometimes being the loudest ones at church.
One time when Heather was sick, I took Jonathan with me to care group (and I was leading worship, so Jonathan had to be by himself (some
walking around, or “reading” the song sheets) without distracting people), but when he was antsy during the prayer time, I had asked him to
listen to what the people were praying, and when we got home, he joyfully exclaimed that Mrs. Harvey had prayed for Heather to get better, and
from then on, has paid more attention during prayer times (not always – not trying to say he is perfect).
Now being at a church where most of the kids are in the service, I can say with more certainty that it is possible for kids to sit during a
whole service, even if there is a “long” sermon. And I think I wrote about the Kuhns on our blog a while ago, about their four year old
answering questions on the book of Revelation, and John was kind of surprised that he knew the answers – and his son said – well, it was in
the sermon the other week….
The Regans are the only ones that I know of at Ascension that feel similarly, and have lots more years experience with it than the rest of us,
so it is great to see that it does work, that it isn’t just a random theory.
And since I see that “SursumCorda” recently responded again, I do want to clarify that though I don’t disagree with “long” sermons, I do think that the model should be one of more interaction.
Once someone pointed out the scripture to me about what should happen when a second person stands up with something say, I have fully agreed with that model – ie. not that the second person shouldn’t stand up, or that he has to wait for the first person to be done, but that the first person stops and waits for the second person before continuing.
“When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation…And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop.” 1 Corinthians 14:26,30 (NIV)
About the nursing in church thing. After probing a bit, the guideline was that nursing Noah was fine, but please nurse Jonathan in the nursing mothers’ room. All this came through the care group leader, but it was pretty likely to be coming from this one lady who believed it was a form of child abuse to nurse a child past one year. So then, in a desire to keep peace as far as it depends on us (not that I didn’t have any thoughts like yours, Beth!) the next Sunday I went to the room to nurse Jonathan. What do you know but that particular lady was in there nursing her son (less than four months old.) It was probably the most awkward ten minutes of my life. So then we changed our “policy” – if this lady was in the auditorium, I went to the nursing room, if not, I stayed put. It worked fine.
Related note about leadership – I believe the care group leader didn’t know much about nursing, and so didn’t expect his request to be such a “big deal.” We asked him to talk to the pastor, whose wife has nursed five children, and we didn’t hear any more about it.
I’m also quite thankful to my husband who is fully supportive and broke the request to me gently.
My favorite part of one of Tom’s links:
‘The six-year-old son of a friend of mine was waiting for the service to begin. An elderly lady, sitting in front of him, turned round and asked, “Are you going to be good?” – “Are you?” he replied. At this the elderly lady smiled, “You’re quite right,” she said, “I find it boring sometimes too!” How does the church meet this challenge – to inspire both young and old and to enable them to see that it is possible for them to make a difference?’
The healthy small church mentioned by Liz (in post 4) and small town church brought up by Jason (in post 23) are no doubt advantageous for such a vision. In central PA I’ve chatted w/a CMU alum who attended Covenant Reformed Presbyterian, http://www.covenantfellowship.org/ and still flows w/enthusiasm for the intergenerational worship of that local assembly.
Here’s an article which highlights the ’small church advantage,’ http://www.calvin.edu/worship/stories/children.php Although not quite that small, the piece brings back memories not only of the local assembly in which I was raised, http://www.donegalpresbyterianchurch.org/, but also the local assembly which sponsored the Christian school where I received K-8 education, http://mysite.verizon.net/vze7qq7d/
“Small churches may have an intergenerational advantage, according to Peter Bush, pastor of Knox Presbyterian in Mitchell, Ontario, and co-author of Where 20 or 30 Are Gathered: Leading Worship in the Small Church.
“Maybe in a small church, it’s easier for kids to sit through worship that meets the older generation’s needs….because Mrs. Smith calls them by name and Mr. Park, who loves this hymn with strange words, gives them a mint on Sunday.”
Peter Bush
“Small churches have a sense that the children belong to all of them, so they’re thrilled to see ‘their’ kids reading Scripture. There’s a family atmosphere that makes it easier for the congregation to accept clear attempts to reach children.
“And maybe in a small church, it’s easier for kids to sit through worship that meets the older generation’s needs…because Mrs. Smith calls them by name and Mr. Park, who loves this hymn with strange words, gives them a mint on Sunday,” Bush says.
By-the-way, last year I heard a Mennonite Professor share about students who came to the denominational college at which he taught. He noted the students for the most part sought out small congregations of which they could be an integral member of the Body of Christ. They were drawn to local assemblies below 80 regular participants.
Our church has a children’s message, which Jonathan loves, it does make him pay more attention to what people are saying so he is ready to get up to the front quickly – for some reason (presumably he has his mother’s genes) he likes be in the exact front, and gets thrown off when the speaker has pulled up his chair on the other side of the group.
I think Noah almost asked to go up with him last week, we’ll see how that plays out.